Oral Testimony of GISANURA Innocent

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Id:	kmc00094_vid2mp4
Title:	Oral Testimony of GISANURA Innocent
Sequence:	2 of 2
Abstract:	The oral testimony of GISANURA Innocent, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi, recorded by the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony discusses early memories of childhood and family, the worst atrocities during Genocide, suffering and witnessing human rights abuses, surviving the Genocide. The testimony is given in Kinyarwanda.

Publisher:	Kigali Genocide Memorial

Language:	kin
Rights:	Kigali Genocide Memorial

Creator:	GISANURA Innocent

Continues with Part 1 of the Oral History Testimony of GISANURA Innocent.

Ubuhamya Bwanditse

Ubaza: Turavuga ku byerekeye abafaransa cyane cyane niturabirangiza nibwo tuvuga ibindi.

Gisanura: Ubwo nongeye kubona abafaransa ngeze ku bitaro ku Kibuye. Kuko nagerageje ku bw’amahirwe y’igitekerezo nari nagize, nabashije kugera ku bitaro, ndetse mbasha no kubona umuntu unyitaho. Ariko nyuma yo guhura n’ibibazo byinshi birimo gukubitwa n’abasirikare b’abanyarwanda, ndetse n’Interahamwe. Ariko nyuma y’abyo bagiye kunyica hakavamo umuganga umwe wahise amfata en charge [anyishingira] akavuga ko agiye kunyishingira. Ni umudamu yitwa Nyirantoyitabe…aranyishingira. Ubwo rero nyuma y’aho aho amariye kumfata charge zo kunyishingira; kumvura; ndetse no kugira ikindi yamarira mu byo yari ashoboye; nibwo nongeye kubona abasirikare b’abafaransa. Nyuma yo kubabona mu Bisesero. Narababonaga bakinjira n’imodoka zabo…amajipe mu bitaro. Bakazenguruka ntazi ibyo bashaka, bakongera bakigendera. Nk’uko umuntu uwo ariwe wese ajya ahantu afite icyo ahashaka, yakibona cyangwa akibuze, akongera akigendera. Ariko muri iyo minsi cyane ko nageze ku bitaro ku itariki ya kane z’ukwa karindwi [4/ 07/ 1994]. Wa mudamu yabonaga ko ubuzima atari bwiza, cyane ko abantu bashakaga guhunga bajya muri Congo, kandi ko nawe yashoboraga guhunga bikaba ikibazo cy’ahantu azansiga. Yatangiye rero gusaba abafaransa bakajya bagirana imishyikirano, we ku giti cye n’abafaransa. Ariko akaza akambwira uko ibintu byifashe. Nyuma ku itariki cumi n’eshatu [13/ 07/ 1994] niho babashije kwemeranwa neza. Yarababwiye… ikibazo cyanjye, ndetse nanjye yari yarambujije ngo sinzababwire ko nari Bisesero, kuko nari namubwiye uko byagenze Bisesero. Bakaba… kuko nari namubwiye uko byagenze Bisesero, ambuza kuzababwira ko nari Bisesero. Kandi nawe ambwira ko azababwira ko ntari Bisesero, ahubwo ko ari umuntu yishingiye kuva jenoside itangira, akaza kugira ibibazo agakomereka, none akaba ashaka ko bamufasha bakamukiza. Kandi nk’uko baje bari gufasha n’abantu ariko aranyihanangiriza ati: “ntuzababwire y’uko wari uri bisesero, nk’uko nanjye ntashobora kubivuga. Kuko niba baraje Bisesero nshobora kubibabwira bakakwanga.” N’ubundi ariko ibyo nange nagombaga ku byitwararika, nibutse ibyo Abafaransa badukoze mu Bisesero, ntabwo nagombaga kongera kubabwira y’uko nari mpari. Kuko numvaga mfite ubwoba y’uko bashobora kwanga kunkiza, kandi wenda bari kunyakira. Ubwo ku itariki cumi n’eshatu [13/ 07/ 1994] nibwo yabwiye Interahamwe ebyiri yari yaranshakiye… zarandindaga kugirango hatagira umuntu unyica akaziha amafaranga ibihumbi bitanu [5000 frw] ku munsi. Noneho uwo munsi aziha amafaranga ibihumbi icumi [10000frw] Yayazihaye ndeba. Azibwira ko zigomba kumperekeza zikangeza ku Bafaransa. Ko nimpagera jyewe mvuga amazina yanjye ko abafaransa banzi, ko babyumvikanyeho, ko nimpagera mvuga amazina yanjye abafaransa barahita bamenya bakanyakira. Ubwo interahamwe zaramperekeje zingeza ku kigo cy’abafaransa ahantu bari bari. Icyo gihe ryari ishuri ry’abakobwa ryisumbuye n’ubu riracyari ishuri ry’abakobwa ryisumbuye, riyoborwa n’ababikira. Ubwo ngeze ku marembo abafaransa bambajije niba ndi umututsi. Icyo gihe nari nambaye agakote wa mugore yari yaranguriye, nitwikiriye mu mutwe nanga kugaragaza ibikomere, nanga kugirango mu nzira hatagira Interahamwe yansagarira ikanyica. N’ubwo za zindi zari zimperekeje, bambajije niba ndi umututsi ndababwira nti: “ndiwe.” Mvanaho agakote mbereka mu mutwe barandeka. Aho nari narakomeretse za Nterahamwe zinsezeraho zirataha. Abafaransa baranyakira, ngera mu bafaransa gutyo. Uwo munsi batangiye kumvura, kuko ntabwo ku bitaro bari barigeze bandoda. Gusa bari barampaye antibiotique [imiti ikamura amashyira] zituma ntagira infection [amashyira]. Ubwo abafaransa nibo babashije kundoda, ku buryo bapfutse n’umutwe wose. Mbese bankorera traitement spécial [bamvura mu buryo budasanzwe] niko nabyita. Kuko ibyo aribyo byose bangiriye akamaro, ku byerekeranye n’ubuzima. Kuko baramvuye byibuze n’ubwo ntakize ako kanya, ariko n’uno munsi kuba nta ngaruka mfite kuri zino nkovu, nkeka ko ari uko navuwe neza.

Ubaza: Nyuma mwaje gutandukana gute?

Gisanura: Abafaransa twaje gutandukana mu kwezi kwa… sinibuka itariki neza, ariko hashobora kuba ari nko mu matariki ya nyuma yo mu kwezi kwa karindwi, cyangwa se mu kwezi kwa munani kugitangira. Aribwo badufataga batangiye gufata abantu bamwe bakabatwara mu nkambi yindi yayoborwaga n’abafaransa ya Nyarushishi, abandi bakadutwara i Goma. Ariko icyo gihe i Goma badutwayeyo bavuga ko ari abantu bafite ibikomere, kuko abenshi twari inkomere. Bavuga ko bagiye kutuvura. Ariko ubwo mbere y’uko tujya i Goma dutwawe n’abafaransa, mu minsi yanyuma y’ukwezi kwa karindwi, cyangwa se yambere… cyangwa yambere y’ukwezi kwa munani. Abafaransa n’ubundi …n’ubwo wasangaga turi abantu benshi muri icyo kigo cyabo bari bafashe, twari abantu bagera nko muri… hejuru ya magana abiri, cyangwa magana atatu. Sinzi umubare, ariko twari benshi… twari benshi cyane; bigaragara y’uko rwose twari benshi. Turenze nka magana atatu, cyangwa se magana atatu cyangwa turenzeho. N’ubwo hariya batwitagaho twaravurwaga nk’inkomere, n’abandi bafite ubundi burwayi bakabasha kugerageza bakabavura uko bishoboye ku buryo bworoheje. Ariko njye nabashije… n’ubwo navurwaga kuko nari mfite umudocteur w’umufaransa ashobora kuba yari major, wari ushinzwe kumvura. Kuko njye nari nkomeretse cyane, nari mu bantu bakomeretse cyane…cyane. Noneho ubwo nari mfite umu major wanyishingiraga. Noneho n’iyo najyaga no kurya twajyanaga kurya. Kuko njye hari n’igihe ntaryaga, njyewe kenshi banzaniraga ibiryo muri chambre [icyumba] yanjye. Ariko hari igihe yambwiraga ngo ninsohoke ntembere, tukajyana. Nko ku meza ngasangira nabo, n’abandi basirikare benshi. Ariko na none nk’uko wambajije uti: “Abafaransa…” Abafaransa bigaragara y’uko batari baje kudukiza, ahubwo wari umutego wo kugirango batwegisipose [exposer:badushyire ku mugaragaro] ku Nterahamwe, kugirango zitwice neza bitaziruhije, zitumareho. Kuko no mu Bafaransa ubwabo hari abantu babahungiragaho bakanga kubakira. Nk’ubwo ku kigo kuri iryo shuri rya sécondaire [ryisumbuye] ryitwa ‘Ecole sécondaire de ste Marie,’ kera yitwaga NT [normal technique]. Ariko hariho abahazaga bakabanga, kandi bigaragara y’uko ari abantu bicwa…ari abatutsi. Nk’uko nabo ubwabo bivugiraga y’uko ngo baje gukiza abatutsi bicwaga.

Ubaza: Bababwiraga ngo iki?

Gisanura: Bakabanga neza… bakabanga. Noneho ibaze umuntu uje aguhungiraho ukamwanga, ku marembo cyangwa hirya n’ubwo yaba yakoresheje ingufu kugirango ukugereho. Ni nk’uko umuntu yaba yarabashije kuba akiriho muri ya minsi ya nyuma ya Jenoside nko mu kwa gatandatu… mu kwa karindwi. Ariko ntabwo yashoboraga kumara undi munsi ataricwa, kuko Interahamwe aho hafi zabaga zihari. Ndetse no mu kigo indani Abafaransa bafata abantu bamwe, kuko ndibuka nk’umusore bafashe baramureba… icyo gihe Interahamwe zirinjira zirimo Kayishema, icyo gihe yari aje aje ngo kubasura.

Ubaza: Gusura abafaransa?

Gisanura: Yee, sinzi ibiganiro bagiranaga, n’ubwo atabashije kugera ahagana haruguru ngo adusange aho twararaga, ariko yagarukiye ku marembo, avugana nabo. Ariko uwo munsi Interahamwe zari ziri kumwe nawe, zibona umuntu muremure ziravuga ngo uriya Mututsi dushaka kumwica. Zaramutwaye ziramwica, zimuhawe n’abafaransa. Kandi noneho kubera ko icyo gihe uwo mu docteur yantwaraga gusangira nabo, kenshi sinsangire n’abandi bantu twari duhuje ibibazo, ariko ari nk’umuntu… abikora nk’umuntu unshizwe. Anyitaho, hakabaho nk’igihe antembereza tukajyana muri chambre [icyumba]ye kugirango ntembere anganiriza neza, akanzanira nk’akaradiyo nkumva musique ka écouteur [bumvira mu matwi], akantembereza mu kigo henshi. Byatumye mbasha kubona ibintu byinshi bindi abafaransa bakoraga bitari byiza.

Ubaza: Wabitunyuriramo?

Gisanura Ndibuka ko nko k’umunsi w’abafaransa naraye mpageze ku itariki cumi n’enye [14/ 07/ 1994] ubwo bizihizaga umunsi wabo w’ubwigenge. Ku itariki cumi n’enye z’ukwa karindwi, bari bakoze fête [umunsi mukuru] rwose yo mu rwego rwo hejuru. Noneho uwo munsi bafashe inyama bari bashigaje kuri fête yabo, bazisiga acide [uburozi] bazihereza abantu bamwe muri babandi twari turi… bari babashije gukiza. Bamwe bavugaga ko baje kudukiza, babaha inyama ziriho acide [uburozi] inyama z’inkoko, cyangwa… n’imikati. Kandi noneho uwo munsi nibwo nabibonye, ariko byarakomeje kugenda bafata acide [uburozi], bakayisiga ku mikati cyangwa ku nyama. Kuko akenshi baryaga inyama z’inkoko. Répas [igaburo] yabo, iyo ariyo yose ndi kumwe nabo, turi mu kigo cyabo ntabwo baburaga kurya inyama. Kenshi… cyane cyane iz’inkoko. Noneho nk’izo bashigaje bakazisiga nk’acide… acide [uburozi]. Noneho barangiza kuyisiga bakazihereza abantu bagapfa. Ibyo nabashije kubibona nk’uko numvaga ibiganiro byabo. Nk’uko nari mu wa mbere … Jenoside iba, nigaga mu wa mbere sécondaire [w’amashuri yisumbuye] numvaga igifaransa, uretse ko kukivuga byabaga binkomereye. Ntabwo byabaga binyoroheye, ku buryo ngirana ikiganiro… [cyangwa ngirana communication] n’umuntu ku buryo bworoheje, ariko iyo bavugaga narumvaga neza hafi ya byose. Ku buryo n’uwo mu docteur, kimwe n’undi wari aumônier [ushinzwe gusengesha abasirikare]w’umu capitaine wari ushinzwe gusoma misa mu basirikare b’abafaransa, nawe twaragendanaga. Urebye niwe n’uriya mu docteur nibo bantu nakoranaga… nsa nkaho nibuka muri mémoire [mu bwenge] yanjye mu bafaransa. Nibuka uriya aumônier wasomaga misa…

Ubaza: Havré?

Gisanura: Hano ku myenda hari handitse amagambo menshi, ariko kubera situation [ibihe]umuntu yabaga arimo simbyibuka neza, ibintu byari byanditseho. Ikintu numva nibuka ku bintu byari byanditse hano, kuri numéro de matricule n’ijambo ‘havré,’ nicyo nibuka. Yari aumônier [usengesha abasirikare] kandi ashobora kuba yari capitaine. Uriya docteur [umuganga] nawe ashobora kuba yari nka major, kuko numvaga babivuga. Noneho undi nawe nzi, ni uwari ushinzwe gusoma misa omônier, ariko we ku bantu batari abagaturika b’abaporo. We muzi kuko nanjye najyaga mu misa y’abaporo, akadusomera misa muri rusange, nawe nari muzi. Undi nari nzi n’uwari ushinzwe affaire sociale [imibereho myiza]ushinzwe kureba uko twaryamye, ushinzwe kureba uko twariye; ariko kenshi njyewe ntabwo nabaga ndi muri iyo groupe, kuko nabaga ndi muri chambre [icyumba] yanjye spéciale [kihariye]aho bamvuriraga. Gusa ni uko bandekaga nkatembera mu kigo, igihe cyo kuryama cyagera nka nijoro nkajya muri chambre [icyumba] yanjye.

Ubaza Nk’abo ngabo basigaga acide ku nyama bakaziha abantu bagapfa, ni muri abongabo batatu? Cyangwa ni abandi bari bari ahongaho?

Gisanura Oya, ntabwo ari abongabo batatu ndi kukubwira, nibo basaga ari nk’inshuti zanjye. N’ibyo bintu nzi nabimenye kubera ko nagendanaga nabo. Nkeka ko nanjye wenda bari kuzayimpa, ariko kubera ko docteur anyitayeho yirirwaga amvura, ibyo aribyo byose nk’umuganga nta kuntu yari kumvura ngo narangiza anyice. Ariko naho ni ikizere gike mbigiraho. Padiri nawe yansuraga buri munsi nk’umuntu wari ushinzwe gusoma misa, ndetse na wa mu pasteur buri munsi bagombaga kugera muri chambre [ibyumba] zirimo abarwayi b’inkomere barembye cyane bakabasengera. Noneho bigatuma baza bakanganiriza n’agafaransa gake nari mfite nashoboraga kuvuga, nkavugana nabo. Batangira kuba nk’inshuti zanjye tugakominikana [communiquer: tukavugana] bo ntabyo bakoraga byakorwaga n’abandi basirikare. Ariko wawundi wari ushinzwe affaire sociale, ashinzwe nk’ukuntu… nk’imirire, imibereho niba nta bantu barwaye cyangwa uko abantu baryama cyangwa isuku, yari afite indi groupe [itsinda] y’abasirikare b’abafaransa akenshi nka nimugoroba baviyoraga [viol:gufata ku ngufu] abakobwa n’abagore ku ngufu. Bakabatwara rimwe na rimwe bakaza barira bavuga yuko… ndetse bamwe bakanavuga bati: “niba ibi baje bavuga ko baje kudukiza, aho kugirango umuntu akugire atya birutwa n’uko yakwica. Ibyo byose nkabyumva biramanta [se lamanter: kwitotomba] ariko kenshi nkanabyumva ku bafaransa bo bigamba ukuntu bari bujye gufata abakobwa, kuri abo basirikare bamwe, bari bayobowe n’uriya wari ushinzwe affaire sociale. Kuko niwe wari ufite uburenganzira bwo kwinjira igihe icyo aricyo cyose mu mahome twararaga… abandi bararagamo n’ubwo jye nabaga mu cyo nitaga nk’ibitaro. Cyangwa se ni nawe wayoboraga nk’iyo hazaga nk’abashyitsi baje nko kutureba, cyane nk’abasirikare b’abafaransa b’abayobozi, b’ababasirikare b’abafaransa, niwe wabinjizaga hose. Icyo gihe rero ku mugoroba akenshi yazanaga I groupe y’abasirikare bageze nko muri batanu bakaviyola [bagafata ku ngufu] abagore. Kenshi ariko ntabwo babaviyorelaga aho bararaga, barabakururaga bakabatwara, waba ushaka cyangwa udashaka. Iyo bumva bashaka ngo uriya cyangwa uriya barabatwaraga bakabajyana rimwe na rimwe bakagaruka barira, ubundi ntibarire, kubera n’ubundi ubuzima nk’ubwo no mu ntambara Interahamwe ibikorwa nk’ibyo zarabikoraga, ariko bamwe ukumva bibababaje. 00:15:26 Gisanura Ku buryo na nyuma y’aho, hari umuntu umwe twari duturanye, umusore twari duturanye yagemuriraga inkoko abafaransa; za karoti; amashu; amagi… Abibagemuriye abasha kumbona. Ambonye arambwira ati: “wageze hano gute?” Ndamubwira nti: “nanjye numva bindenze sinzi ukuntu nahageze.” Ariko kuberako ntabwo namwizera ko mvugana ibintu byinshi nawe, kuko numvaga ko nawe ashobora kuba yarishe. Ntabwo nari nzi niba hari umuntu yishe, ariko naramukekaga kuko abantu benshi twari duturanye bari barahindutse Interahamwe bicaga. Noneho arambwira ati: “mbese waba uzi aho mushiki wawe ari?” Anyibarishaho. Ndamubwira nti: ntaho nzi mushiki wanjye baramwishe mperuka bamuzana hano kuri stade ku Kibuye, igihe twari twahungiye kuri paroisse bigitangira. Arambwira ati: “rero mushiki wawe mbere y’uko agera kuri stade, mu nzira Interahamwe zagendaga zibakura mu modoka zigahitamo abo zishaka zikajya kubagira abagore babo no kubaviyora ahantu ari ndahazi. Wowe uzabibwire abafaransa nibemera y’uko muzajyana bakamuzana, nzahabereka.” Noneho mbibwira abafaransa. Ariko umuntu nabibwiye, ni wa mu padiri na wa mu docteur wanjye. Ariko kubera ko docteur we yahoraga avura, twapanze igihe tuzajya gutwara mushiki wanjye nawe tukamuzana nawe tukamukiza, kuko nari ngize amahirwe wa musore wagemuriraga abafaransa ibintu by’inkoko n’ibindi ambwiye ko mushiki wanjye akiriho. Noneho njyana na padiri n’abandi basirikare babaga bashinzwe opération zisanzwe zo kujya ahantu, bagenda bajya gukiza abantu bataricwa n’interahamwe, ariko n’ubwo mu nzira tujya aho mushiki wanjye yari ari hari abantu bamwe bazaga babirukankiraho babasanga babonye amajipe yabo bakababwira bati: “nimudukize Interahamwe ziri kuduhiga, zirashaka kutwica,” abafaransa bakabanga. Noneho no ku buryo twageze kwa mushiki wanjye…n’ikintu kibi… kibi ntazibagirwa abafaransa bankoreye, ni ukuntu mushiki wanjye… maze kubwira uriya omônier ko mushiki wanjye akiriho ko hari interahamwe yamubohoje twajya kumufata . Akabashaka kumbwirira abasirikare bari babishinzwe kujya ku evacuwa [évacuer: gukiza] abantu kugirango tubakize, tukajyayo twagerayo uwari uyoboye abafara… abasirikare twari tujyanye… Padiri we yaramperekeje nk’umuntu w’inshuti yanjye, ujya aza no kunsengera mu bitaro aho mba ndwaye. Noneho docteur we yari yasigaye yari yambwiye ngo ninjyane na padiri. Tugezeyo uwari uyoboye, commanda wenda uwo nakwita nk’umuyobozi wiriya opération [kiriya gikorwa] yanga… tugezeyo abasha kuvugana na ya Nterahamwe yari yarabohoje mushiki ibasha kumubwira ko mushiki wanjye ari umugore wayo wemewe n’amategeko ko adashobora kumwaka umugore we ngo amukundire. Noneho wa musirikare w’umufaransa nawe arambwira ati…ati: “malheuresement [birababaje] ntabwo ibyo watubwiye ari ukuri, waratubeshye. Watubwiye ko mushiki wawe bamuviyoye… bamufashe, none ahubwo mushiki wawe ni umugore w’iriya Nterahamwe ati: rero mu bintu nshinzwe mu mategeko mba nahawe, ntabwo nshinzwe gutandukanya abagore n’abagabo. Njye nshinzwe gukiza abantu bapfa, none mushiki ntabwo ari mu bantu bapfa, ahubwo ni umugore w’uriya mugabo, uriya ni umugabo we.” Ahubwo bampa uruhushya rwo kugirana amagambo yanyuma mvugane nawe nkongera nkagenda. Mushiki we ararira nanjye ndatakamba, uretse ko jye ntarize, kubera ko kuri icyo gihe nta marira nari nkibasha kugirango ndire, n’ubwo nari kubabara kajana ntabwo nabashaga kurira nta marira nari nkigira yo kurira. Mushiki wanjye akarira kuko Abafaransa bari bari kwanga, kandi ya Nterahamwe nayo ikensisita [insister: igakutiriza] ivuga y’uko ari umugore we. Mushiki agahakana nanjye nkagerageza kubwira padiri, kuko niwe twumvikanaga ari nawe nari narabwiye uko ikibazo giteye, nti: “ni mushiki baramuviyoye bamufashe Jenoside itangiye, baramuviyora [bamufata ku ngufu]rwose mbabarira mumukize.” Padiri nawe akabibwira wa musirikare wari ushinzwe opération aranga. Aravuga ngo: “ntabwo ashinzwe gutandukanya umugore n’umugabo.” Ku buryo mushiki wanjye icyo gihe barambwiye ngo ninurire imodoka dusubire ku Kibuye cyangwa niba nanze mpasigare. Nashatse kwanga ngirango ndebe ko bakwemera bakamutwara baranga. Ariko mushiki wanjye nawe arampata aravuga ngo: “sinsigare ningende ngo we biragaragara ko atazabaho. ngo ariko ko ngewe ninjyana nabo ko nshobora kuzabaho, simpime gusigara na gato. Ngo nindeke azapfe wenyine.” Urumva ko ni ikintu kibi nibuka mu buzima kugirango… nk’ubu ndicuza acyatumye mbwira abafaransa kujya kureba mushiki wanjye aho… wenda iyo ndorera agapfa wenda nkazumva ko yapfuye, ariko atarapfuye mbireba kubona twaragiye…

Ubaza Nyuma yaje gupfa?

Gisanura Yee, yaje gupfa ubwo abafaransa bavaga muri zone turquoise, aribwo inko… abasirikare b’Inkotanyi zije kokipa [occuper: gufata] aho abafaransa bari bari, Interahamwe zari zikiri muri région [karere] ya zone turquoise [igice cyari kirimo abafaransa] zose zarahunze zijya muri Congo. Mu gihe zahungaga rero zaravuze ngo: “ntago zaba zirimo guhunga Inkotanyi, noneho bahungane n’iyindi Nkotanyi noneho bahita bica mushiki wanjye. Baravuga bati : “ntago twaba duhunga bene wanyu, ngo niturangiza tuguhungane.” Bati : “kandi na none tugusize uri muzima ntacyo twaba dukoze, kandi duhunga bene wanyu, reka tukwice. Noneho na ka gasaza kawe niba kakiriho kazasange warapfuye, nako ntikazakubona.” Ibyo byose nabibwiwe…mbega uko mushiki wanjye yapfuye nabibwiwe n’abantu. Kuko nasubiye hahandi yari ari nyuma ya mirongo cyenda na kane[1994], ni muri mirongo cyenda na gatanu [1995]mu kwezi kwa kane. Nibwo nasubiyeyo nkeka ko yaba akiriho. Kuko no muri Congo naho twabanje gufatwa bugwate n’Interahamwe ahantu abafaransa badutaye mu kigo… Noneho rero icyo kigo cyari ikigo cy’imfubyi z’abanyekongo kera mbere ya mirongo cyenda na kane [1994], ariko impunzi z’abanyarwanda zigezeyo zikigira ikigo cy’impunzi. Ariko Abafaransa tugezeyo badutamo. Badutayemo na none Interahamwe nazo zisa nk’izidufata bugwate. Ku buryo na none twatashye mu buryo bugoye buruhije cyane.

Ubaza Harya ngo mwagiye mu mato… y’abafaransa?

Gisanura Yego twagiye mu mato y’abafaransa. Noneho batugeze i Goma, tugeze i Goma badushyira ahantu hitwa i Gatindo, badushyira ahantu mu kigo cyari ik’imfubyi z’abakongomani. Icyo kigo twasanze harimo Interahamwe nyinshi, zahungiyemo zivuye mu Rwanda n’izindi zikomeza kwiyongera. Noneho zitangira kudufata bugwate, kuko n’abasirikare b’abacongomani bahacungaga umutekano, baje kurushwa ingufu n’izo Nterahamwe. Gusa twaje gutaha mu kwezi kwa mbere ku bintu… iyo ntekereje nsanga… twatashye mu kwa mbere kuri opération [igikorwa] yakozwe na Croix - rouge internationale yari iyobowe n’abanyacanada, nibuka umugore umwe w’umuzungu mu baducyuye witwaga marcarte n’undi witwaga Louise ariko we yari umukobwa, w’Umunyacanada… Louise niwe wari umunyacanada ndabyibutse. Ariko iyo ndebye nsanga kuba twaratashye sous forme[bikozwe] ya opération ya croix –rouge, atari bo gusa hashobora kuba hari indi force [izindi] yatumye dutaha kuko twari twarafashwe bugwate n’Interahamwe zivuga ko tutagomba gutaha, ko nitugerageza gutaha zizatwica. Noneho Jenoside irangiye, ubwo mu kwa mbere kwa mirongo cyenda na gatanu [1995] ngarutse mu Rwanda, nibwo mu kwezi kwa kane nongeye gusubira i wacu ku Kibuye, kuva Jenoside yaba. Noneho nibwo nagiye hahandi mushiki wanjye yari ari, ngezeyo nsanga yarapfuye. Mbajije urupfu yapfuye nibwo bambwiye urupfu yapfuye… nibwo bambwiye ibyo byose ukuntu yishwe na za Nterahamwe zari zimufite zihunze zikanga kumuhungana. Ubwo abafaransa bari bahavuye mbega umutekano waho ugiye gucungwa n’inkotanyi, noneho interahamwe zikekaga ko zishe abantu nazo zidashaka kuhaguma, ahubwo zihunze zigiye muri Congo. Zanga guhungana mushiki wanjye.

Ubaza: Yego ibyo birumvikana ntibari kumutwara. Noneho rero urebye duse nk’abafata umwanzuro; kuri iyo opération turquoise; kuri buriya buryo abafaransa baje mu bisesero n’uko wababonye. Ubona bari baje bafite mugambi ki, kandi we waba… icyo wabanenga cyangwa icyo wabashima ni iki?

Gisanura: Gusa, baramvuye. Urabona ko nk’ibi bikomere [yerekana mu mutwe] nibo babimvuye. Ni ikintu kiza ntashobora kubagaya rwose. C’est à vos souvenir [urwibutso rwiza]. Ariko peu importe [ibyo ntacyo bivuze], kuko aho kugirango babe baramvuye gutya [yerekana mu mutwe], bakica abandi bantu mu maso yanjye; yaba bariya bahaga acide; yaba abo baviyoraga; yabaga na babandi babaga bahunze baje ku kigo bahunze ubwicanyi bakeka ko bashobora gukira ariko bakabanga, cyari ikibazo.

Naho mu Bisesero?

Gisanura: Mu Bisesero ho urabyumva, nta kwirirwa ujya impaka.

Ubaza: Ndifuza ko ubyivugira mu magambo yawe nyine…

Gisanura Ibyo nkubwira bwa mbere nyine ari nabwo bwa mbere baje, kiriya kintu badukoreye ni ubugome…ni ubugome burenze kamere. Ku buryo nshobora kuvuga nti: “abafaransa nabo ni abagénocidaire [abakoze Jenoside]. Ntashatse kuvuga abafaransa bose! Ahubwo… kuko wenda hari n’abaturage b’abafaransa batazi ibyabaye. Ariko bigaragara ko ingabo z’abafaransa, zagize uruhare mu bwicanyi bwabereye mu Rwanda. Kuko kiriya gihe n’ubwo twicwaga, na mbere hose jenoside igitangira, ariko iyo bativanga mu bibazo byacu. Wenda bakareka izo Nterahamwe zikatwica, ariko batatubeshye ngo baje kudukiza, tukajya ahagarara tukicwa kubera bo. N’ubundi twaricwaga ntawe ubihakana, ariko nta muntu dupfana ngo niwe utwicishije. Tukumva ko twicwa na za Nterahamwe, cyangwa abanyarwanda bene wacu, nk’uko natwe iyo twarwanaga nabo harimo abapfaga nk’uko twarengeraga ubuzima. Nabo harimo abapfaga ntabwo aribyo guhisha. Ariko nkibaza vraiment[mu by’ukuri] nkibaza nk’igihugu nk’ubufaransa kuki bwohereje ingabo zabwo, nk’igihugu ku isi na rôle [uruhare] gifite mu buzima bwo ku isi hose, kuki cyanejejwe kohereza ingabo zabwo kuza kwicisha abanyarwanda bicwa n’abandi banyarwanda.